Southern Poverty Law Center Investigates Michael Bailey

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has just published a major expose of Bailey’s book, The Man Who Would Be Queen and the forces behind it. The article is in an issue of SPLC’s quarterly Intelligence Report that focuses on the realities and causes of the terrible wave of hate crimes against transgender and transsexual women now rampant in my U.S. cities. It is also on the web, along with the article on hate crimes.
You can find the one on Bailey here
and the one on hate crimes here
Lynn Conway, who has been one of the people helping dig up information on Bailey, adds: “SPLC confirmed our worst suspicions about the right-wing hatemonger group of elite academics, journalists, writers and media pundits that Bailey and Blanchard have been running with for at least the past 5 years. As Anjelica often says about the entire Bailey mess: ‘It’s unbelievable, yet undeniable…’.”
I don’t find it unbelievable – but all too believable. This is one of the reasons I think it’s important for the TG spectrum to come together, and to provide a united front with the GLBT community against attacks like this.

10 Year Anniversary of Brandon Teena's Death

I found this article here
Brandon Teena 10 Years Later
(Falls City, Nebraska) While most of the world prepares to celebrate New Year’s Eve this week, transgendered Americans are pausing to remember Brandon Teena on the tenth anniversary of his murder.
The December 31, 1993 killing of the good-looking 21 year old galvanized Falls City, Brandon’s hometown, and for the first time put a national spotlight on the plight of the transgendered. It was the inspiration for the award-winning 1999 film, “Boy’s Don’t Cry” and led to the first civil rights laws for trans citizens.
Teena was a female to male pre-op transsexual and had been living as a male for several years. In December, 1993 he went to County Sheriff Charles Laux and reported he had been raped by two men, John Lotter and Marvin Nissen, after they discovered he had been born female and still had female organs. Teen had been dating a female friend of Lotter’s at the time.
Laux refused to investigate. A week later Teen was murdered by the pair who also killed two people who witnessed the killing.
Lotter and Nissen were eventually charged, tried, and sentenced, but not before the nation became gripped by the brutality of the case and the indifference of authorities.
An appeal by by Lotter was rejected by the Nebraska Court of Appeal earlier this year.
But, in his death, Teena gave birth to transgender militancy. Trans men and women across the country began to organize, forming lobby groups to not only educate the public but to press for civil rights.
Today, 65 municipalities and states have hate crime laws that specifically include transgendered people, according to the Transgender Law Policy Institute. California became the fourth state to adopt such a law earlier this year.
“How many times do you get to see a giant sea change like this in people’s perceptions? But you look at Congress, corporate America, and cities and states … and you see this enormous change in how people are looking at gender as a civil rights issue,” said Riki Wilchins, executive director of the Washington-based Gender Public Advocacy Coalition.
Yet, despite the advances, violence against the transgendered continues. Last year, 17 year old Gwen Araujo was murdered in California by three men who discovered she had been born male. A year ago, Nizah Morris a TG performer was murdered in Philadelphia. In the past 12 months, Remembering Our Dead, an online memorial that tracks bias killing of transgendered people around the world, recorded 17 deaths in the United States.

TG Teen in TX

I hate to report sad news, but I saw this article and felt obliged to post it. This girl’s suicide broke my heart, especially upon reading that laws that would have protected her failed to get passed.
This girl is why we all need to get out there, educate, lobby for the legislation that would protect us.
I’ve reprinted this article with the permission of Texas Triangle.
Transgender Teen�s Suicide Leaves Unanswered Questions
By Steven Morris
On November 18, Christopher Brownlee found his 15-year-old brother Ben hanging from the garage, a thick black rope that he used to walk his animals tied around his neck. Christopher and his mother had long since accepted Ben as Tesia Samara�a girl who, in her own words, was �trapped in a �male� body.� Suddenly the pressure of being different in the small town of Rockdale, Texas, became too much for her.
Like many stories similar to this, it took a long time before anyone really took notice. Even those of us in the GLBT press didn�t hear about until a month after Tesia�s suicide. Only now, when her mother has decided to find out what really happened has it become a �story.�
Tesia�s mom, Karen Johle said Tesia was upbeat on the Tuesday morning of her suicide when she left for school. She had been in counseling for some time and her therapist believed that her thoughts of suicide had lessened in the last few weeks. So it was an even greater shock when Johle came home and could not find Tesia. At first Johle thought Tesia was at the local cemetery where she liked to go to write poetry, listen to music and get away from everything. When she found all of Tesia�s shoes in her closet and her headphones and CDs nearby, Johle knew something was wrong.
Ben grew up In Rockdale, a town of about 4,500 people, 60 miles northeast of Austin, and had lived there all his life. His father left when he was a toddler. When he finally started to dress the way he felt, Tesia emerged. She grew her hair long and started to wear hip-huggers and make-up. Her family accepted her as Tesia, but school was another story.
Johle said Tesia endured the taunts and teasing of her classmates who knew her as a boy for most of her life, but now saw her dressed as a girl on a daily basis. Everyday he was called �gay boy, fag boy, hair girl.�
Tesia had recently seen an episode of Oprah about transgenderism and was determined to begin hormone therapy and have a sex-change operation. She was in contact with one of the guests from that show who was helping guide her in the right direction.
She had even written a letter to one of her teachers, trying to explain her situation and asking for the educator�s help when it came to difficult situations. �I mainly run into sticky situations at school,� she wrote. �For instance, when they separate the females from the females (sic) for the nurse�s scoliosis testing, those kinds of things are hell for me. I wanted you to know this so that maybe you can help me to avoid some the hard and embarrassing times I could have. So if you happen to call me �her� on accident, let�s just say that I wouldn�t be unhappy.�
Tesia was very informed about her situation. She had researched the condition known as gender dysmorphia, which leads to the feeling that a person is in a body of the wrong sex. She knew her options when it came to surgeries to correct the problem and was prepared to undergo the difficult gender reassignment surgery. She had been taking hormones for three months �Spirotone and Premarin� that she bought off the Internet. While she knew she would never really be accepted 100 percent at school, she had the love of her family and a few good friends who understood her situation and accepted her for who she was.
That is why Johle believes something happened after school that day that led to Tesia taking her own life. There are rumors going around school that some classmates had assaulted and urinated on Tesia after school that day. Police have looked into it and believe it is just a rumor, but Johle feels differently.
Despite the fact the Tesia had attempted suicide twice before (though only once that his mother was aware of), Johle still believes Tesia was provoked on November 18. The Principal and teachers had all spoken to Tesia in the weeks leading to her death and felt she was adjusting well and was handling the pressure as best she could. She had been doing well in her counseling sessions at Waterloo Counseling Center and Johle believed Tesia was combating her suicidal thoughts well.
Lt. J.D. Newlin of the Rockdale Police Department investigated the rumor of an attack but could find no evidence to support the suspicions. He interviewed a teacher and several students but came to a dead end.
Johle went to Newlin with a copy of the state�s hate crime law in her hand, but according the Lesbian/Gay Rights Lobby of Texas (LGRL), currently, there is no state law to protect students from such harassment in Texas schools.
State Representative Garnet Coleman (D-Houston) tried to change that during the most recent legislative session by authoring the �Dignity for All Students Act,� which would have addressed this type of issue. The bill was referred to the House Committee on Public Education, but Committee Chair Kent Grusendorf refused to give it a hearing.
Students have sought relief from harassment and discrimination under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, as well as Title IX of the Education Amendments Act of 1972. However, these laws do not specifically protect students from discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity.
�In failing to pass the �Dignity for All Students Act� the leadership of the legislature failed a significant portion of the Texas population,� LGRL Field Coordinator Colin Cunliff said. �And the consequences are deplorable, such as the loss of Tesia Samara�s life.�
Johle has refused to give up and will continue to fight to discover the truth behind Tesia�s death. She had Tesia�s body cremated and while almost 300 people attended the memorial Service in Rockdale, Johle refuses to have Tesia buried there.
�He hated this damn place,� Johle told the Austin-American Statesman. �I sure as hell wasn�t going to bury him in a city he hated so badly.�
_____________________________
The Poetry of Tesia Samara
Thinking Pains
All of the time
I see myself thinking
Thinking all inside
Dreaded thought to thought
Carefully linking
Bringing my death in shapes and size
I�m self-destructing thinking
Submerged to lose
I am sinking
Nest of serpents
My own twisted mind
Creative manner to deal in living
Grown to stern
Ripped at stern
Evil in root
I see myself thinking
All of the time.
Transgenderism
Took a turn too far
To trespass
To know that I am nothing more
Than an error in eternity
Held hands, to keep me here.
But that hand slipped,
Clover discolored,
Misintended as I was blighted;
We never meant to be this.

General Clark and Barry Winchell

This just in, from the National Transgender Advocacy Coalition:
Critics Rail Against Senate Promotion of Gen. Robert Clark
WASHINGTON DC – On Tuesday, November 18th, the U.S. Senate voted to confirm the promotion of Major General Robert T. Clark to the rank of Lieutenant General, the Army’s second highest rank. The senate confirmation drew rancor from the nation’s major Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender (GLBT) Organizations, including the National Transgender Advocacy Coalition (NTAC).
In 1999, Gen. Clark was the commander of Fort Campbell, Kentucky at the time PFC Barry Winchell was murdered when his fellow soldiers came to believe to him be gay. Winchell, whose death was subject of a Showtime Movie, “A Soldier’s Story,” had a romantic relationship with Calpernia Addams, a pre-operative transsexual woman.
Clark failed to take steps to deal with the homophobic climate of Fort Campbell, and obey and implement “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” regulations. Gen. Clark’s inaction in response to the anti-gay harassment suffered by Barry Winchell in the weeks leading up his death has been the subject of much controversy, and has been cited as a possible contributing factor to his murder.
“Instead of being considered for a “promotion,” General Clark should have been court-martialed, and sent to prison for dereliction of duty!” fumed Cliff Arnesen, Vice President of the New England GLBT Veterans. “George W. Bush, and all those in the U.S. Senate who voted to confirm Clark’s promotion, ought tobe ashamed of themselves”
“With the many other more deserving three-star generals who were encouraged to retire after being told there was no promotion for them on the horizon,” said Vanessa Edwards Foster, chair of the National Transgender Advocacy Coalition (NTAC), “it’s incomprehensible that this would be the candidate that the Bush administration deemed worthy of promoting.
“To the GLBT community of America, this sends a distinct message: Homophobic? Good job, soldier!” Foster commented, “the Bush Administration rewards apathy towards homophobia.”
Despite Gen. Clark’s claims that he was not aware of any homophobic incidents at Fort Campbell prior to the murder, there had been numerous reports of anti-gay harassment, graffiti, and assault at the post. A Department of Army Inspector General report also found Fort Campbell to be suffering from low morale, inadequate delivery of health care to soldiers and their families, andleader-condoned underage drinking.
Despite repeated requests, Gen. Clark refused to meet with Winchell’s parents, Patricia and Wally Kutteles, but finally relented this spring on the eve of his appearance before the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee. During the meeting, Clark expressed regret over Winchell’s death, but refused to accept any responsibility for the homophobic harassment that took place under his commandat Fort Campbell.
“There is compelling evidence that the anti-gay harassment at Fort Campbell was pervasive,” said Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA) on the Senate floor Tuesday, “General Clark says he agrees with these findings, but that he was, nonetheless, not aware of a single instance of anti-gay harassment prior to the murder.” “A brutal, bias-motivated crime is an extraordinary event in anycommunity,” Senator Kennedy continued, “the available evidence indicates that General Clark’s response was not adequate.”
Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) expressed “utter disgust with the tragic and brutal beating that took the life of Pfc. Winchell at only 21 years old,”adding, “my deepest sympathies are with his family.”
NTAC was joined in opposition to Gen. Clark’s nomination by Service Members Legal Defense Network, the Democratic National Committee, People for the American Way, the Human Rights Campaign, the National Lesbian & Gay Task Force, the National Organization for Women, American Veterans for Equal Rights, the Transgender American Veterans Association and a coalition of state-wide civilrights organizations, including Michigan’s Triangle Institute.
Arnesen of the New England GLBT Vets noted, “the message conveyed to our Country’s GLBT service members is that they will have to continue to serve insilence, as we have a Commander-in-Chief, who was quoted in the New York Times as saying: “I’m a Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Man.””
“We at NTAC are quite anguished with the Senate and especially with the Administration,” commented NTAC chair, Foster. “The antipathy this decision communicates to all non-heterosexual servicemen and women, especially in time of war – in time of America’s greatest need – is profoundly disappointing.
“This unwise decision speaks volumes.”
You can find more info about Barry Winchell, hate crimes, and this story at a site dedicated to the memory of Barry Winchell.
You can find out more about the work that the NTAC does at their site .

Transgender Day of Remembrance

Today, November 20th, is the Transgender Day or Remembrance, when the TG community remembers and honors TG victims of violence.
There is a website dedicated to the Day of Remembrance. For more about today, and a list of the memorials occurring around the country, check here
From that site: Day of Remembrance
“This site has gone black in honor of the Day of Remembrance, November 20, 2003, to honor the 38 victims of anti-transgender murder since last November�s event, and to remember all victims of anti-transgender violence or prejudice. For more details, see the Remembering Our Dead website.”
“The Transgender Day of Remembrance was set aside to memorialize those who were killed due to anti-transgender hatred or prejudice. The event is held in November to honor Rita Hester, whose murder in 1998 kicked off the �Remembering Our Dead� web project and a San Francisco candlelight vigil in 1999. Since then, the event has grown to encompass memorials in dozens of cities across the world. Rita Hester�s murder � like most anti-transgender murder cases � has yet to be solved.”
“Although not every person represented during the Day of Remembrance self-identified as transgendered � that is, as a transsexual, crossdresser, or otherwise gender-variant � each was a victim of violence based on bias against transgendered people.”
“We live in times more sensitive than ever to hatred based violence, especially since the events of September 11th. Yet even now, the deaths of those based on anti-transgender hatred or prejudice are largely ignored. Over the last decade, more than one person per month has died due to transgender-based hate or prejudice, regardless of any other factors in their lives. This trend shows no sign of abating.”
“The Transgender Day of Remembrance serves several purposes. It raises public awareness of hate crimes against transgendered people, an action that current media doesn�t perform. Day of Remembrance publicly mourns and honors the lives of our brothers and sisters who might otherwise be forgotten. Through the vigil, we express love and respect for our people in the face of national indifference and hatred. Day of Remembrance reminds non-transgendered people that we are their sons, daughters, parents, friends and lovers. Day of Remembrance gives our allies a chance to step forward with us and stand in vigil, memorializing those of us who�ve died by anti-transgender violence.”
For a list of those TG people we have lost.

Kirkus Review

This just in, my first official review:

“The forthright wife of a transvestite offers a revealing look inside the little-known world of transgendered men and their female partners. Boyd (a pseudonym), founder of an online support group for cross-dressers and their partners, pulls no punches here in telling her primary audience, women with cross-dressing boyfriends or husbands what she has learned from both personal experience and five years of research. Among the questions she tackles are why some men cross-dress and why women choose to stay with them. Profiling six couples from her online support group to demonstrate that there are various ways of dealing with cross-dressing, Boyd opens with a brief introduction to each couple (and photos of some), then let them describe themselves and their relationship in their own words. Elsewhere, she discusses the pros and cons of coming out, the most common sexual problems of cross-dressers, and the differences and similarities among cross-dressers, transsexuals, and homosexuals. She argues that cross-dressers, some of whom are quite adamant about being heterosexual and resist any linkage with other transgendered groups, could learn a lot from the gay community about facing harassment, discrimination in employment, and rejection from friends and family. The book has a helter-skelter feel: Boyd mixes big topics like history, politics, and psychology with up-close and personal material about cross-dressers she has come to know and like, her personal experiences living with a cross dresser, her clashes with those whose views she does not share. Whatever its organizational faults, however they’re balanced by the author’s honest voicing of her opinions, misgivings and fears. Back-of-the-book material includes a glossary of expressions and abbreviations used in the transgendered community, with supplemental terms that should have been folded into the main entry; an alphabetical list by first name of all the people mentioned in the text, which serves no readily discernible purpose; a chatty annotated bibliography, and a list of resources from cross-dressers and their significant others. Makes abundantly clear the complexities of life with a cross-dresser.”

– Kirkus Reviews, 11/15/2003

The Hateful Rev. Phelps

Sign the petition to keep Rev. “God Hates Fags” Phelps from putting up a statue of Matthew Shepard which would read, “MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God’s Warning: ‘Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.’ Leviticus 18:22”
This kind of hate can’t be tolerated.

Riki Wilchins on the TG spectrum

from Riki Wilchins’ Gender Queer :
“Transgender was intended as an umbrella term, then a name of inclusion. But umbrellas don’t work well when one group holds them up. Today, trans activism is often focused on the problems (bathroom access, name change, workplace transition, and hate crimes) faced by those who have been most active in its success: postoperative male-to-female transexuals (any similarity to the author is purely coincidental).
Yet there is little being done today to address the needs of drag people, butches, cross-dressers, transexuals who do not seek surgery, or (besides the Intersex Society of North America) intersexuals. Cross-dressers especially have suffered from lack of representation, although they number in the millions and experience severe problems associated with child custody, job discrimination, hate crimes, and punitive divorce precedents.
Thus has transgender, a voice that originated from the margins, begun to produce its own marginalized voices. And in part because – as an identity organized around “transgression” – there is a growing debate over who is “most transgressive.” How does one decide such questions? For instance, as one transexual put it, “I’m not this part-time. I can’t hang my body in the closet and pass on Monday.” There is no doubt, from one perspective, that cross-dressers enjoy some advantages. They are large in numbers, most only dress occasionally, and they can do so in the privacy of their own homes. Does that mean they would live that way if they had a choice? Does it really make them “less transgressive”?
In fact, nobody wants men in dresses. There are no “out” cross-dressers, and almost no political organization wants them or wants to speak in their name. “A man in a dress” is the original “absurd result” that judges, juries, even legislators try to avoid at all costs when rendering verdicts or crafting laws. “Men in dresses” isn’t the next hit movie: It’s a punch line in the next joke.
Among genderqueer youth, it is no longer rare to hear complaints of being frozen out of transgender groups because they don’t want to change their bodies. In an identity that favors transexuals, changing one’s body has become a litmus test for transgression. . . .
Since trans activists have loudly and justifiably complained about being “most transgressive” and about being consigned to the bottom rung of gay and feminist concerns, so it is doubly unfortunate to see them developing hierarchies of their own, in which transpeople must compete for legitimacy and in which their own margins soemtimes go unrecognized. Indeed, like assertions over who has more “privilege,” debates over who is most “transgressive” are a form of reverse discrimination that seeks to confer status based on who has it worst. Which is to say, debates over identity are always divisive and never conclusive. They are divisive because at heart they are about conferring status, always a zero-sum game. For one person to win, another must lose. They are inconclusive because there are no objective criteria by which to decide. Winning such debates is always a function of who sets the rules and who gets to judge. And since postsurgical transexuals are most often in a position to judge, at the moment, the rules tend to favor their life experiences . . .
There is no denying that after a persistent 10-year struggle, the T in LGBT is here to stay. Will the new gay embrace of transgender be successful? Will gay organizations actually devote any real resources to transgender, and if so, will they give us anything more than transexual rights? On this, the jury is still out. Although a few organizations have led the way, most organizations have not brought to bear anything like real muscle, and what muscle there is continues to be channeled into “gender identity” and transexual concerns. In the meantime, butches, queens, fairies, high femmes, tomboys, sissy boys and cross-dressers have completely vanished from civil discourse. They are never mentioned in public statements by any major progressive organization. For political purposes, they have ceased to exist. Gender itself remains invisible as a progressive issue. If it is mentioned at all, it is carefully confined to transgender. . . . With gender stretched out across the whole surface of individuals’ relations with society, maybe it’s time to quit attacking the problem piecemeal, waiting for the next issue to appear on the front page of the New York Times. Maybe it’s time to acknowledge gender stereotypes as a problem we all share, a central concern, a way to come together: a human rights issue for us all.”

How To Tell Your Wife

I was recently asked by a CD how he should tell his wife on a mailing list I’m on, & since this is definitely one my most “Frequently Asked Questions” I thought I’d post the ’10 Guidelines For Telling Your Wife or Girlfriend” here. It always makes me so happy to know a CD wants to tell his wife. I know the urge is a little bit selfish on the part of the CDer, but it’s also a great sign of the respect & love he has for his wife.
After that, there is no simple answer. There is no guarantee she’ll deal well with the new info, or accept you. That said, I still think it’s worth it.
The things I’ve learned in doing the research are that:
1) The sooner a man tells his wife the better. Before marriage is best, but still – the sooner the better.
2) Know what your CDing means to you, so you can talk to her about it in some intelligent, sensitive way. If after you tell her, every answer afterward is “I don’t know” she’ll freak out. Be prepared for the ‘Are you gay?’ and ‘Do you want to be a woman?’ questions, & don’t get upset when she asks them.
3) Does she know gay & lesbian people? Any close friends or family members? Does she have any firsthand experience of discrimination or feeling ‘different’? How does she feel about being a woman, herself (ie is she a feminist, traditionally feminine, tomboyish, etc?) But keep in mind her general open-mindedness or political liberalness might go right out the window on this issue.
4) I’d recommend not hitting her with all of it at once – that is, tell her a story about yourself as a kid, putting on your mom’s nylons or whatever your first childhood experience was. Make sure you bring this up in a quiet time between you, conversationally, & you give her time to tell some childhood stories of her own. (In general, the ‘announcement’ method isn’t very good, it has to be more of a conversation, as unconfrontational as it can be.) Or, you can say you’ve been thinking about doing some female character for Halloween (please not a hooker or slut! Wonder Woman, an Amazon, some cool woman or heroine is usually better!) & see how she reacts. If she wants to play Charlie Chaplin to your Louise Brooks… you know she can ‘play’.
That doesn’t mean you can stop there. She needs to know the whole of it. I’m just saying it might be a good conversation starter. Eventually you will have to explain why you didn’t tell her sooner, apologize for not having done so, and be clear that you understand you screwed up.
5) This one’s personal: letting your fear & vulnerability about how scared you are of her acceptance worked like a charm in our case! All women differ, though – sometimes a woman might freak out if you come off as too feminine, or ‘soft’ – it depends on her. If she thinks it’s great you can cry at sad movies, then she might appreciate how much it means to you/hard hard it is for you to tell her. Not in a ‘woe is me’ kind of way – but just so she knows you’re sharing something about yourself that you wouldn’t trust most people to know.
6) After you tell her, don’t bring it up again until SHE does. In the meantime, read some books about women (not glamor magazines, biographies of famous women, or gender theory, or whatever. I just read “Am I A Woman?” by Cynthia Eller & recommend that.)
7) If she is accepting, make sure it’s fun for her and not all about you! Let her take the lead in figuring out how it can be. That is, if you suggest she be Charlie Chaplin for Halloween, she’ll just feel bad – but if she decides to, it might be totally empowering for her! Alternately, I’ve now heard of three happy younger couples who all went, for their first Halloween together, as “starlets.” You both get to glam up & feel sexy –
8) If she’s freaked out by it, drop the subject & wait wait wait to bring it up again. Don’t wait forever, but do give her time to sort out her own emotions about it. Be sensitive – if she seems like she needs to talk, ask her if she wants to. But don’t start the conversation with “So have you made up your mind about my crossdressing?” but more with something like “Do you have any questions?” Don’t assume crossdressing is what she wants to talk about. She may be wanting to discuss your little problem with leaving your dirty clothes outside the hamper.
9) Know your wife, make sure you keep up all the other romantic things you do for/with her. Bring her flowers, buy her gifts, & be less inhibited about telling her how much she means to you. Don’t lay it on too thick – just tell her how you feel about her, honestly. You CDs are all romantics, imho, so let it out!! Re-emphasize your non-CD life together, even if she is totally accepting! (as I like to put it, I don’t mind having a girlfriend, too, but I still always want my husband!)
10) Listen until your ears bleed. You have “known” a CD all your life – but this is probably the first time she’s met one! So it will take her time to get the idea wrapped around her head. In fact, when you first tell her, what you’re telling her may not even ‘register’ at some level. She won’t have any idea in the beginning that this is a permanent thing. Expect phases of anger, sadness, fury,disappointment. Try to remember that if you, as a CD, sometimes wish you weren’t a CD, she’ll have similar feelings.
P.S. If the husband needs to stay in the closet, so that she can’t tell anyone either, make sure she knows there are other wives of CDs who she can get to know & let off some steam with.