“Girl Scouts is an inclusive organization and we accept all girls in Kindergarten through 12th grade as members. If a child identifies as a girl and the child’s family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout. Our requests for support of transgender kids have grown, and Girl Scouts of Colorado is working to best support these children, their families and the volunteers who serve them. In this case, an associate delivering our program was not aware of our approach. She contacted her supervisor, who immediately began working with the family to get the child involved and supported in Girl Scouts. We are accelerating our support systems and training so that we’re better able to serve all girls, families and volunteers.”

This in response to a report that one child was denied membership because one child was denied membership because “he has boy parts.”  Even the article reporting it headlined the piece Boy wanting to join Girl Scouts told ‘no‘ even if it was otherwise sympathetic.

I have to say, I’m pleasantly surprised, which is not something that happens often to a trans advocate.

Nick Krieger recently published the FTM spectrum narrative Nina Here Nor There: My Journey Beyond Gender and I was very impressed with the book. I’ll admit that his bio, on the back of the book, was what reeled me in: “A native of New York, Nick Krieger realized at the age of twenty-one that he’d been born on the wrong coast, a malady he corrected by transitioning to San Francisco.” With a sense of humor like that, how could I not read it? Beacon Press published it.

One of the many amazing things about living in San Francisco is the diversity. Difference is accepted and celebrated, which allows more space for self-expression. After spending ten years in lesbian and queer communities, I really started to see the myriad ways that people presented and understood their own genders; there was so much room outside the binary gender boxes. From the media, shows like Dateline and 20/20, I had always believed that all trans people were “born in the wrong body” and had Gender Identity Disorder. But in looking around my community, I discovered a new understanding of transgender that included a whole array of FTM spectrum (trans-masculine) people.

I very intentionally tried to respect the choices of the other characters. I think that in any type of personal inquiry or journey, it’s really easy to judge/oppose one side and admire/align with another. It creates certainty during an uncertain time. But it also limits the opportunity for self-growth, reflection, and understanding. In early drafts, I work through my judgments in the hope that I’ll eventually be able to render my characters with compassion and acceptance.

2. There’s a line about how sexual partners of pre transition trans people always want to appreciate the (physical) part of a trans person that the trans person doesn’t want appreciated. Can you elaborate?

There is this great challenge in a relationship where one person is fundamentally uncomfortable in their body and the other person loves everything about them, including their body. It is a sad and painful deadlock because the body is the vehicle to express and share physical intimacy.

For me, there was one distinct moment when this issue really hit home and became an insurmountable obstacle. I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror in an intimate moment with my girlfriend, Ramona. I had such a distinct understanding of my own self-image that when I saw my reflection exactly as she saw it, I was horrified that she found me attractive. I had a lot of guilt throughout our entire relationship. I always felt like I was stripping her of one of the greatest pleasures of being in a relationship, appreciating and loving her partner physically.

3. I have to confess to a moment of “oh, those Kriegers” while I was reading. Do you feel there was any additional pressure on you as a result of your family’s status? Has there been any resolution with your father?  We always worried about our loved ones feeling a sense of “fine, you’re trans, but did you have to tell the world about it?”

Haha—Sometimes I have those moments, too. But while I felt constrained by familial values that I tie to my class upbringing, like markers of respectability and success, I didn’t feel additional pressure. I never really thought of us as having status. We’re the type of family that would want to win the golf tournament, but avoid staying at the golf club after to socialize.

When I came out as a dyke (ten years before I came out as trans) there was very much a “Fine, you’re gay, but do you have to tell the world about it.” I learned a lot about my dad through that experience. He is deeply private about everything. He’s just not a sharer. I often think I became a writer in response to this environment. I always notice the fear and shame that lurks in the silence. This intrigues me. I believe the awkward, potentially embarrassing, messy reality of being human binds us together, that vulnerability is the key to connection, and that sharing (not oversharing) is empowering.

Yes, there’s been some resolution with my dad. It has been a great lesson that the more I care for myself, the more I have to offer other people, especially my parents. My anger and frustration have really dissipated now that I no longer feel constrained by them. My mom has been ridiculously supportive about the book. Her only discomfort is with the sex parts, which I understand completely. She’s near apologetic about not pushing the book on her friends, and I’m all, “Mom, you’ve done enough, really.” On some level, I feel like I’ve exasperated her beyond her breaking point. She doesn’t care what I do or who I am—she just wants her kid. We’re closer now than we’ve ever been.

4. Your acknowledgement of your own privilege was a refreshing change of pace. I find that kind of ownership is much more common in FTM spectrum spaces. Do you agree? Care to venture a guess why?

In my experience, ownership of privilege is relatively common in the FTM or trans-masculine spectrum people. Almost all of the ones I know lived as lesbians for some or many years, and there is so much social awareness, activism, and political consciousness within this community. Also, some of these people were butches and/or hardcore feminists; they find acquiring “male privilege” abhorrent. The trade-off for moving into the male realm is being really outspoken about privilege and becoming an agent for change and progress.

For me, once I started exploring male privilege, it forced me to notice and confront other areas of privilege. Acknowledging my class privilege was a challenge because it’s almost something to be ashamed of in queer community. But I’ve found that to write a memoir, and to live in integrity, I have to be completely honest with myself.

5. One of the things that most struck me about your narrative was how different it was. Your exploration of trying to figure out what was up, exactly, and how you might do something about it, expressed far more finesse than many trans narratives (of the “I always knew I should have been a girl” variety). I suspect your experience reflects many others’ experiences, and I’m wondering what kind of response you got to that honesty.

I expected my story to resonate with people in the middle ground/genderqueer space, but I was a little surprised at how many trans guys taking testosterone, living as men, have written to tell me that this is finally a trans narrative that they could relate to, and that they were exhausted by the typical, “I knew I was a man because [insert gender stereotype]” stories.

While exploring my gender, I kept reading these typical stories, none of which spoke to my experience. I wrote this book to offer an alternative, a new angle that shows how complicated gender is, and how much diversity exists. I hope that it encourages those who share aspects of my story, but I also hope it inspires those whose experiences have yet to be written.

I have to add that I have terrific hair envy. I’m sure I’m not the only woman who wants to get her fingers in it.

You leave the toughest *question* for last, huh…?

While I never wished I were a boy growing up, I did often think that if I were a boy, I would have long hair. I decided to grow my hair literally the second I decided to take my first testosterone shot. In the past two years, my hair has become a magnificent beast with a life of its own, endlessly surprising me with its possibilities. I probably shouldn’t disclose this publicly (a phrase that for a memoirist functions like a dare) but I don’t wash my hair. Ever. My stylist, whom I’ve been with for six years, says it’s unnecessary. I also don’t own a brush. All of which may explain why it’s been a little too long since a woman has gotten her fingers in it.

My review of Nina Here Nor There will be in an upcoming issue of make/shift, but in the meantime, do check it out.

1) First, tell me about COLAGE & how the book for Kids of Trans happened, what your goals were.

COLAGE (www.colage.org) is a national movement of children, youth, and adults with one or more lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and/or queer parents. We build community and work toward social justice through youth empowerment, leadership development, education, and advocacy. I first contacted COLAGE five and a half years ago, when I was working on my undergraduate thesis: “She’s My Father: The Social Experience of People with Transgender Parents”. Looking for references for my project, I discovered a diverse community of queerspawn who gave me the space to better articulate my experience and encouraged me to continue my work, since there are hardly any resources for transgender parented families. I started presenting at transgender conferences and gained a renewed sense of responsibility to build community and develop resources for people with transgender parents.

During a COLAGE conference in Dallas two years ago, I suggested to Meredith Fenton, COLAGE Program Director, that perhaps I could fill a fall internship position at the national office. We came up with a Fellowship model for my position, which has become a new program for the organization. I worked full-time for eight months focused specifically on the Kids of Trans Program. The major goal of the fellowship was to develop resources for people with transgender parents. Since there was no book detailing our experiences and offering advice to people with trans parents, the Kids of Trans Resource Guide became the obvious main project.

My goals in writing the guide were: first, to tell other people with trans parents that they are not alone; second, to recognize that the entire family transitions when a parent transitions; and third, to provide compassionate advice from people who have similar families. In short, I hoped to create the book I wanted my father to give me when she came out to me over ten years ago.

2) I remember first meeting you & being thrilled to meet another ally who happened also to be related to the trans community – me as a partner, you as a KOT. How did trans people respond to you being at the conference & at trans events?

Yes, I remember how inspired I was to meet you, too! At many conferences, there is the inevitable question – so, why are you here? Since I don’t identify as transgender and very few people read me as trans, many people are curious about my presence at trans conferences. Once I explain my work, people tend to be excited that someone is advocating for transgender families. Although, there is usually some confusion about whether I work with trans youth or youth with trans parents.

The most memorable response I ever received was at an IFGE conference. I stood up during a panel session, introduced myself as the daughter of a transwoman, and asked how people with transgender parents can utilize the media to further transgender equality. The entire crowd gave me a standing ovation! That was the moment when I decided to dedicate more time and energy to building the Kids of Trans program. Each parent I meet reminds me how this work touches people’s families.

3) So far, what has the response been to the book?

The response has been great. People have been waiting for this type of resource for so long that families are thrilled that it exists. One therapist told me that they gave a copy to a couple who were about to come out to their kids and the parents were visibly relieved to have this type of resource. The book features quotes from nineteen people with transgender parents, and people really appreciate the personal experiences sprinkled throughout the text. By including so many elements of this experience, I hope everyone finds a resource for their family. The guide includes: The Basics, Finding Out Your Parent is Transgender, Tips for Transition, Family Shifts, Talking About Our Families, and other valuable resource sections.

It really is amazing to be able to direct people to the COLAGE Kids of Trans website (www.colage.org/programs/trans) to find a copy of the guide, sign up for our online discussion list, and search the resource lists. People can also request paper copies of the guide through the site. Since the guide is aimed at middle school aged youth and older, there have been a few requests for a resource for younger children. There are a few books for young children listed in the resources section, but I agree that we need more tools to explain gender non-conformity to young children, not just those with trans parents.

I am excited that the Kids of Trans Resource Guide addresses some of the needs of our community. If just one person feels less isolated because of this book, I’ve achieved my goal.

4) Have your feelings about your own gender changed as a result of having a parent who is trans?

My entire understanding of gender – my feelings about my own gender and other people’s genders – has been deeply impacted by witnessing my father transition from male to female. Mainly, I have a broader sense of the possibilities of gender identity and expression. In part, because I saw my dad become a woman. Also, I’ve found myself quite often existing in queer and transgender spaces, where various genders are lived and celebrated.

Since I have learned to respect the gender identities and expressions of my parent, her partner, and others, I have gained an appreciation for the complexities of my own gender.

5) I expect you don’t stay idle for long: what’s your next project?

The filmmaker, Melissa Regan, recently shot follow-up footage with the family. The sisters are teenagers now and Barbara has been living as a woman for a few years. The new footage provides invaluable perspective on one family’s process of understanding a loved one’s gender transition. In Spring 2009, No Dumb Questions will be re-released on DVD with new footage. We will also launch an interactive online community where anyone can use video, audio, photos, text and social media to ask – and answer – their own questions about gender identity and sexual orientation.

My role is to get the word out about the new project and provide input as an advocate for transgender people and families. I am really excited to apply my energy and expertise to educate the public about issues of gender identity and expression. As we saw last fall with ENDA, there is still a lot of education needed around transgender rights, even within the LGB community. This film and website will provide a venue where people can ask their ‘dumb’ questions and get answers about trans people’s experiences. You can read more at www.nodumbquestions.com.

Julia Serano is a Bay Area slam-winning poet, author, performer, activist, & biologist. She organized the GenderEnders event from 2003 until last year; plays guitar, sings & writes lyrics for her band Bitesize, and oh – has a Ph.D. in biochemistry. We got to meet her when she was in town promoting her book Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity, recently published by Seal Press.

(1) I loved Whipping Girl, for starters. I think it’s a pivotal work for trans communities, especially in building trans pride. But you know I kept waiting for you to actually define “feminine” – maybe if not for all time, but in some way that I could understand what you meant by it specifically. Your “barrette Manifesto” came close, except that I see barrettes as childish, not feminine per se. So can you help the genderblind like myself? What is femininity? Can you be feminine without being girly?

In the next to last chapter of the book, “Putting the Feminine Back into Feminism,” I talk about that a bit, but I’ll try to define it here a little more clearly. I would say that femininity is a heterogeneous set of traits (some of which are cultural in origin, some biological, some psychological, and many are a combination thereof). The only thing that all feminine traits have in common is that they are typically associated with women in our culture. But they certainly aren’t exclusive to women, as many men and MTF spectrum transgender folks also express feminine traits (similarly, many women express masculine rather than feminine traits). I think most of us tend to express some combination of both feminine and masculine traits.

I appreciate that you asked whether a person can be feminine without being girly, as I feel that pretty much describes my experience with femininity. While I have experimented with high femme in the past, these days I definitely don’t see myself as a girly-girl. I only wear make-up or dresses on special occasions and most days I probably come off more as a tomboy than anything else. At the same time, my personality is definitely more feminine in other ways, for example, in the way I tend to be verbally effusive and emotive, and in my concern for others. I don’t believe that these traits “make me a woman,” or that all women should express them. They are feminine traits solely because they tend to be associated with women in our culture.

Your point about how many of the things that are seen as most feminine in our society are also associated with childishness is important. I think there is a tendency to infantilize femininity in our society. One can definitely see that in how teenage girls are so regularly sexualized in our culture (while teenage boys are not). And when we think of icons of femininity, things like Hello Kitty, Barbie and so forth come to mind. Yet, when we think of masculinity, we never think about toy trucks or Transformers. We assume that masculinity is inherently mature, even though people often do the most childish things in the name of masculinity.

(2) We’ve both talked about some of the ways the queer + trans communities meet, or don’t. Can you talk a little bit about your own personal experience with these two communities? Is there a place where you feel at home?

I guess I feel simultaneously at home and not at home in the queer community. I feel at home in queer spaces because I have so many friends there – so many truly wonderful, sweet, creative and interesting people. I would say that most of the people who seem to understand me the best identify as queer. Yet, at the same time, I also feel that there is so much policing of identity in queer spaces, almost as much as there is in straight spaces. Large contingents of queer folks try way too hard to prove that they are “queerer than thou,” or that people they don’t like for whatever reason are “not queer enough.” It’s sad how much the queer community reminds me of junior high school sometimes.

What disappoints me the most is that “queer” is supposed to be an umbrella word for all different types of people who in one way or another are deemed “not straight” by society at large. Of course, the people who are most often accused of not being queer enough by the community are bisexuals, trans folks and our partners. It’s as if the word “queer” keeps reverting back to cisgender gays and lesbians only.

One of the best things about living in the San Francisco Bay Area is that the artistic communities in general are pretty genuinely cool with queer and trans folks, so I also enjoy a sense of community in the local spoken word and music scenes. Folks in those circles may not be aware of all the minutia of queer/trans politics, but they respect my work and my female identity—sometimes even more so than queer folks do.

(3) I was thinking about your observation lately, about me & about you, on Trans Group Blog: that you tend to know more queer-identified trans women who are way post transition, and I tend to know a lot more who are in transition, about to transition, & just transitioned. Here’s my concern: the community I know isn’t very hip to feminist ideas at all, & I wonder sometimes if, for trans women lacking a feminist consciousness, they will get all riled up about their own rights without getting certain stuff about women’s spaces, women’s history, women’s rights. That worries me. Tell me why I shouldn’t worry, or if I should.

I’ve found that many trans women undergo an evolution in their thinking about gender issues. When they are first transitioning, they may be more inclined to see themselves as trans first and foremost, and often they’ll focus solely on trans rights. But post-transition, after having the experience of being treated as female day-in and day-out, they’ll begin to develop a feminist conscious as they begin to face many of the issues that cissexual (i.e., non-transsexual) women face. And many will begin to draw parallels between the misogyny they face as women, and the trans-misogyny they face as trans women.

While many trans women gain an appreciation for feminism either before or after their transitions, I agree with you that some trans women never seem to make this connection. In my book, I critique the whole “single-issue” gender activism approach that occurs when people fail to make connections between their own marginalization and those of other groups. Transphobia, homophobia, biphobia and misogyny are all inter-related—they are all forms of sexism. Therefore, it’s crucial that we recognize the parallels between feminism and transgender and queer activism. So I agree with you that single-issue activists who only fight for the rights of trans people, but not for women or LGB folks can be a problem, and I am concerned with it to.

(4) You coin words in your book, like transmisogyny and effemimania and trans mystification. You’re liberal in your use of transphobia. Do you ever feel that coining new terms loses some readers? I’ve met trans women who get upset about trans discrimination who seem otherwise entirely unaware of their own class or racial privilege. Do you ever worry that some of your salient points might be lost because you use new words, or that your readers don’t have the background in the kind of theory and language you’re steeped in?

I was very worried about using so many new words in the book. For example, I went back and forth for a couple weeks trying to decide whether or not I should use the word cissexual (which I did not coin) rather than non-transsexual, because I was worried that it wouldn’t register with people and they would just put the book down rather than continue on. The reason why I eventually decided to use that term (as well as others which I did coin) was because I felt they were necessary, that they helped illuminate issues that previously remained largely invisible.

Of course, a lot of the coining of new words was inspired by other movements (for example, those to end sexism, heterosexism, racism, classism, etc.), where activists similarly created new language to articulate marginalized perspectives on those issues. It’s hard for me to say how people who are not familiar with these movements will react to the language I use. I’d like to think that maybe the book could become a jumping off point for them to make connections with these other movements. In the book, I talk a lot about being at the intersection of different forms of marginalization, and the last thing I would want is to have people use my book to argue for transsexual or trans women’s rights without making connections to those other important issues. After all, it would be hypocritical for a trans person to expect other people to acknowledge cissexual privilege if they themselves are not willing to look at the privileges they may experience because they are male, heterosexual, white, middle-class, etc.

(5) You seem to posit, in your chapter on being submissive, that you had to move through that phase, that it was somehow part & parcel of your experience of being trans, that your move through (and away from) being submissive meant you had come to accept yourself, & your transness, more. Do you think being submissive is a bad thing, or a sign that something is up mentally or emotionally?

I really wanted to include that chapter because so many trans women (myself included) have submissive fantasies or forced feminization fantasies in the years before they transition (and sometimes after). This of course has lead many non-trans male psychologists (such as Bailey and Blanchard) to view our desire to be female as a “autogynephilic” fetish. They seem oblivious to the possibility that the desire to be female comes first and that the submissive fantasies are merely a coping mechanism to deal with it. That’s how I experienced it. I wanted to be a girl before I had sexual fantasies. I had a lot of shame about my desire to be female (most of which grew out of our culture’s misogynist attitudes), and those fantasies relieved a lot of the guilt that I was feeling. I think this is similar to how a lot of cissexual women feel ashamed about their own sexual desires, and so they may learn to relieve that guilt through rape fantasies. It’s not that they want to be raped, just as most MTF spectrum folks don’t really want to have someone force them into feminization or submissiveness—it’s just that the fantasy enables us to unleash taboo and repressed desires.

I don’t think that having submissive fantasies are necessarily a bad thing, as they are often a survival skill and can be personally empowering to those who experience them. Also, there is a big difference between being a submissive or bottom sexually and being submissive in day-to-day life. Most people I know who are sexually submissive are not very submissive in their day-to-day life.

Bonus Question!!

(6) Call me a Marxist feminist, or Second Wave or something, but I was pretty surprised you wrote so much about femininity and specficially feminine presentation without mentioning consumer culture. Marketing to young girls and tweens and teenagers is over the top these days, and I’ve watched as the moms of my various nieces have had to battle with the girls wanting *everything* that involves ponies and barrettes and girliness in general. So you can say something about the consumption of girliness?

In the book, I talk about how masculinity often comes off as natural while femininity comes off as artificial. For example, many feminists have argued that high heel shoes or make-up are inherently unnatural and artificial, and that they only exist to appease or attract men. What underlies many of these arguments is the presumption that their masculine counterparts are inherently natural or practical. But this clearly isn’t the case. Most men shave their face (something that is arguably unnatural), and those who do it every day often do so in order to look presentable or attractive. But nobody ever talks about all of the time and money men waste on razors, shaving cream, and aftershave. And plenty of men spend an exorbitant amount of money fancy Italian shoes or the latest fad sneakers – there is nothing practical about that.

I agree with you that we live in a highly consumerist culture, and I’ll be the first to critique that. But I also think that when people talk about consumer culture and feminine presentation without also addressing masculine presentation, it seems to me to be really one-sided and sometimes even downright anti-feminine. Granted, women typically spend way more than men on clothing and most grooming products. But while growing up, I knew lots of guys who spent tons of money on things related to their image and presentation: they’d buy overpriced sneakers, or spend lots of money on prettying up their cars, and flaunting their money in other ways to impress women they’re dating or interested in. I’ve found that many (albeit not all) men are just as concerned about their overall image as many women are. It’s just that men are expected to spend money to enhance their image in different ways than women are, and they are far less often critiqued for it when they do.

Marilyn Frank

1) First, Marilyn, I want to thank you on behalf of all the partners out there, for stepping up at a time when most of us weren’t even in high school yet. Without women like you & Peggy Rudd, the struggle to have partners’ issues recognized would be a lot more difficult. So what caused you to do the educating you did?

In the 1970’s I was a volunteer on a crisis intervention hot line in Morris County, NJ. When I became Director, I questioned some of the professionals in the group, who did not know much about cross dressing, but were able to assist me in finding people who did know. During this time we came upon Tri-Ess, and then in 1980 Len read the article in Playboy about Fantasia Fair and in 1981 we spent a few days at the Fair. I had many discussions with Ariadne Kane about the wives’ needs, and this brought Niela Miller to the Fair and that’s where my true education began. Since it had been a very lonely road not only for Len, but for me, I decided I would reach out to help others, so that’s when I started facilitating a wives group at our local Tri-Ess Chapter, which I did for for over 10 years. I also was instrumental in starting the wives’ program at the first IFGE Convention. My philosophy is that every time I help someone, I help myself. It’s true the marriage had its ups and downs where the cross dressing was concerned, but for us it was a small part of our overall marriage. We have always had good communication, enjoy many of the same things and do have a sense of humor (that helps).

(2) You mentioned when we met at IFGE again this past year that you were on TV back in 1980 – maybe it was The Phil Donahue Show? I know that was the one Ariadne Kane was on. What was that experience like?

I was not on The Phil Donahue Show, but on The Richard Bey Show and I can’t remember the year, in the early 80’s. I also appeared on a local WOR TV show and spoke from the audience at The Dr. Ruth Show (this was pre-arranged). When I did most TV shows I was in shadow, not ready to face “the world”. I also did a radio show. I usually was nervous, but if the talk show host was good, I was comfortable and even enjoyed it. After The Dr. Ruth Show she came over to me and said, “I love your husband.”

(3) In Lynda’s essay in Crossing Sexual Boundaries, two of your three kids comment on what a disciplinarian Lynda was, & how masculine. Do you see Lynda as having overcompensated for being a CD? Has she softened up any in her male presentation as a result of being more open about being a CD?

I don’t believe that Len’s discipline with the children was due to overcompensating for being a crossdresser. I was also a disciplinarian, but a little softer. We both came from families that were strict and I guess that’s what we learned. Lynda tries to give a softer presentation in her male role, but has not mastered that yet.

(4) I love the bit in Lynda’s essay about her giving you The Crossdresser & His Wife & you telling her you had other books to read if/when you had the time to read at all, but then you read it on the sly. I occasionally have CDs approach me who, in their enthusiasm, forget that almost no one responds well to that kind of pressure. Tell us a little bit about whether Lynda could have done anything “more right” in giving you room to find your own way, or alternately, what you find is the main way CDs screw up when telling their wives.

Remember that we are married 53 years and I don’t know if there was a “right” way to tell a wife then. Len honestly believed after marriage and having regular sex, the cross dressing drive would go away. He wasn’t even quite sure what a transvestite was. Today with the many books, movies, internet, etc. I think the crossdresser can find the right time and way to tell his loved one.

(5) It’s still occasionally said that wives like us are either proto-lesbians, or repressed, or alternately doormats. What’s your response to those kinds of assumptions?

I never felt repressed or like a doormat. We do “hang out” in lesbian bars and attend a gay Synagogue, but I haven’t met anyone I’d like to be with sexually, but could it happen? Who knows!

(6) We so rarely get to hear from partners you get an extra question – if you choose to answer it. When it comes down to it, do you think CDs are just like other heterosexual men sexually? So many wives have written to me that their CD husbands are less sexual, or auto-sexual, or less aggressive, or prefer cuddling over sex. What’s your impression, generally, after speaking with & supporting so many CD’s wives over the years?

I met Len when I was 11 and we got engaged when I was 19 and married at 20. A cousin of mine once told me how lucky I was to marry someone I loved all those years. She said it was a Cinderella Story and I thought ‘so how come I got Cinderella and not Prince Charming?’ All kidding aside, Len was the only sex partner I had. In 1953 not many couples were having pre marital sex (what a shame). I had other “dates” but never going all the way. I would have to say that Len was and still is the best sex partner for me. Of course as age and health comes into play there are changes, different but still satisfying. I do believe that my crossdresser is just like any other heterosexual man sexually.

Eli Clare

(1) Why poetry?

As a writer, my first love is poetry. I think of it as a thug who grabbed me by the collar many years ago and whispered in my ear, “You’re coming with me.” I went willingly, not having any idea where poetry would take me or what it would demand. Twenty-five years later I find myself writing a mix of poetry and creative nonfiction; my first book, Exile and Pride: Disability, Queerness, and Liberation, is a collection of essays, and my second book, The Marrow’s Telling: Words in Motion, which ought to be rolling off the press at any moment now, is a mix of poems and short prose pieces, not quite essays but more than prose poems.

Audre Lorde in her essay “Poetry Is Not a Luxury” writes of poetry as a “revelatory distillation of experience.” Poems demand both wildness/revelation–moments where language, sound, and rhythm, rather than thought or idea or analysis, take the lead–and discipline/distillation–the paring down to heart and bone. As a writer, a reader, an activist trying to make sense of the world, I need revelatory distillation.

I also know that in the United States too many of us have been taught to fear or avoid poetry, to feel bored or stupid in its presence. As an activist-poet, I always hope that my poems will be doors held wide open, roller coasters, parachutes opening above you, slow meandering rivers.

(2) You’ve previously written about the intersections of disability and being trans. Does experiencing the world as one inform the way you experience the world as the other?

The simple answer is yes.

The generic answer is that all of us live at complex intersections of identity, marginalization and privilege criss-crossing each other. I wrote in Exile and Pride, “Gender reaches into disability; disability wraps around class; class strains against abuse; abuse snarls into sexuality; sexuality folds on top of race…everything finally piling into a single human body.”

The specific answer is that my disability politics and experiences as a disabled person profoundly influence my trans politics and my experiences as a ftm-spectrum genderqueer who has chosen to use medical technology to reshape my body. For example, in making the choice to have chest reconstruction surgery, I grappled fiercely with what self love means. I have spent so much of my adult life working towards loving my disabled body as it is, digging through shame and self-loathing about my cerebral palsy. In contemplating major body-changing trans-related surgery, I was haunted by a childhood fantasy in which I wanted to cut off my right arm to stop my tremoring. The question—what is the difference between my childhood desire for amputation and my adult desire for a flat chest—wouldn’t leave me alone. I didn’t want oppression to carve itself into my flesh yet again. But slowly the answer rose inside me: the first was about shame and abandoning my body, while the second was about embracing who I am and what I want inside this body as I have made it my own, the difference between the two as subtle but yet distinct as light and shadow.

For more about disability and trans politics, see my recent keynote speech at the FORGE Forward Conference in Milwaukee: http://pitbull-poet.livejournal.com/21560.html

(3) You’re one of the trans men out there who has a Women’s Studies degree? Tell us a little bit about what that’s like.

I received my B.A. in Women’s Studies from a women’s college ten years before I started moving towards a trans identity. It certainly makes for an interesting and complex resume, which I am happy to call my own. Recently a co-worker came to me, all concerned after reading a blurb about me that was circulating our workplace. He claimed that the blurb used the pronoun she, rather than my chosen pronoun he. When I went back and checked the blurb, I discovered that it used he throughout and led with the phrase: “With a B.A. in Women’s Studies, a M.F.A in Creative Writing, and a penchant for rabble-rousing, Eli Clare….” Clearly my co-worker read “Women’s Studies” and automatically assumed she. He was chagrined when I challenged him on his assumption. More men simply need to study and participate in feminism.

At the same time my feminist politics have had to grow way beyond my Women’s Studies degree. So many strands of feminism are actively transphobic and, to use a phrase from Julia Serano, trans misogynist. Before I could come to terms with my trans self, I had to be able to step over the ways some feminisms demonize masculinity and men. And in order to build a trans politics of any integrity, we have to challenge the ways in which many feminisms deny transwomen their womanhood.

(4) Who are your influences? As a poet, as an activist, as a person – your choice.

As a poet, I see my work as deeply connected to the traditions of North American (really north of Mexico) narrative political poetry, feminist poetry, and storytelling as witnessing, with some nature writing and social ecology thrown into the mix. The poets who have influenced me—Li Young Lee, Mark Doty, Joy Harjo, Adrienne Rich, Mary Oliver, Eavan Boland, Irena Klepfisz, and Martin Espada, among others—all come from these traditions in one way or another.

More generally my work as a writer and activist are embedded in many communities, which nourish me and which in turn, I hope, are strengthened, enlivened, challenged by my words, both as art and as polemic. Of course, writing is solitary work, and so I often feel some tension between my writerly need for solitude and my writerly connection with community.

(5) Tell us about Homofactus Press, and what’s it’s like to be published by a press that is dedicated to serving FTM and genderqueer people. Do you worry about reaching a larger audience?

I so appreciate the work of Homofactus Press. Publishing poetry in the U.S. is an act of love for, or commitment to, the genre. It’s certainly not a money-making venture. The Marrow’s Telling is Homofactus Press’s second book, the first being an anthology called Self-Organizing Men. Homofactus calls itself a digital, global micropublishing company committed to publishing books by, for and about trans masculine folks, FTMs, and transmen with a special emphasis on communities of color and disability communities. Because Homofactus is new, small, and overtly political, I’ve been involved in every stage of the process from helping to write the contract to working on the book cover design to thinking about marketing strategies. This kind of collaboration is unheard of with larger presses. I know a lot of writers worry about not reaching a wide audience when they publish with small independent presses, but for me there’s so much benefit in publishing within specific communities for those communities. Homofactus makes all its books available as free downloads (both PDFs and mp3s) on the web, which of course increases access for poor people and disabled people. I believe The Marrow’s Telling, while probably not reaching the widest of audiences, will find a deep and abiding home in a variety of marginalized communities. This is more than enough for me.

(1) As far as I know, you are the only therapist who is also trans to write a book about transness. Do you worry about people assuming you’re biased (in a good or bad way)?

As far as I know, no other trans therapists have published books about working with trans clients. I have had the experience of people assuming I am biased in the direction of transition; usually, those who make this assumption are related in some way to a client considering transition. However, when this comes up, I explain to them that I am not biased toward transition, precisely because I DO know how difficult and life-changing this process is. Therefore I don’t approach it lightly.

Now that my book is out there, I expect this question to come up among people who don’t know me, and also don’t know any clients who have worked with me. I hope people will ask me the question directly, rather than making the assumption that because I’m trans and did choose physical transition, that I automatically assume that’s the path for all my trans clients.

The one arena which worries me somewhat around this question of bias is academia. I’m hoping my book will be used as a text; my fear is, if I am seen as a community member writing about my own community, my book may be “suspect” because it may not be considered objective enough for academic credibility. Being subjective has been considered the ultimate faux pas within academia. Not that I think this as a valid view – I think the ultimate experts on a lived experience are those who undertake it – but I do fear this attitude may affect acceptance of my book within academia.

(2) Your approach to therapy and transition comes across as astoundingly holistic, taking into account things like religious beliefs and family, past and present sexual orientation, substance abuse issues, and community belonging. Can you talk a little about why your approach is so different from others’?

The primary reason is because of my own transition process. Having gone through it myself, I know from personal experience that there is no aspect of my life that is unchanged, no relationship that hasn’t also transitioned in some way. Therefore, I can’t view transition as anything other than a holistic process.

I went back to school to become a therapist because I had negative experiences with therapists I saw early in my own process of self-discovery.

I began physical transition while finishing my BA. By that time, I understood the holistic nature of transition, so I looked for a graduate program that would take a holistic view of therapy as well. This combination – viewing my transition as a holistic process and receiving an MA in counseling with a holistic focus – account for the very different approach I take toward gender issues.

(3) You use the term “transition” somewhat loosely, meaning any trans person’s transformation from thinking of themselves as cisgendered to trans. In your definition, that might include medical/legal/social steps toward transition, and it may not. Why such inclusion? Doesn’t that just muddy the waters?

I work with quite a few clients who are genderqueer. They don’t intend to fully transition physically (some don’t undertake any form of physical transition at all), yet they all feel they have transitioned away from their birth gender assignment. They have that same heightened consciousness of gender, that same awareness of gender as a relational process, as those who do undertake physical transition. I’ve watched several genderqueer clients’ identity emerge through the course of their work with me, and their process is every bit as profound and deep a sense of self-understanding as that of my transsexual clients’ emergence.

In considering all my various clientele, and how to conceptualize them in my book, I realized that to honor these folks’ process, I had to look at it as another form of transition. My own process around this is ever-evolving, and it may be that at some point I (or someone else) will come up with terminology that honors genderqueer transition, but allows for a clearer differentiation between those who do feel the need for as much physical transformation as possible, and those who don’t. In that sense, it does muddy the waters to use such similar language – I just haven’t come up with anything better yet.

(4) Simultaneous to your inclusive use of the term “transition,” there is not so much in your book for the non-transitioning trans person. My poor crossdressers and ‘middle path’ types are so often neglected: do you have any useful advice for those who are not transition track? What kinds of services and models might they use to make peace with their transness?

I should have addressed this more fully in my book. I haven’t worked with many people who are cross-dressers and content with that identity. Most of the people I’ve worked with who have identified as cross-dressers have realized that’s not who they really are, that they do indeed need to transition physically. They had tried cross-dressing, and realized it wasn’t enough. They realized their identity was not really cross-dresser, but transsexual.

Other than the above situation, cross-dressers are not seeking me out as a therapist, so I’m not as familiar with their issues. It may be they are assuming I will try to talk them into physical transition, since I’m well-known here as a transgender therapist.

That said… I have a feeling much of what I had to say about working with genderqueer clients might resonate with cross-dressers. There are generational differences in the kinds of terminology people are comfortable with, and many of my older clients are very uncomfortable with the term “queer.” But the concept of gender fluidity, feeling that parts of themselves can resonate with male and other parts with female – this is a model that may resonate with cross-dressers. Coming to view cross-dressing as reflective of a form of gender-fluid identity can lead to a healthier self-concept than viewing it as a form of behavior.

In terms of services, if they can find a therapist who has challenged the gender binary, who does not automatically take the view that “male” and “female” are mutually exclusive, that person may be more helpful to a cross-dresser than someone who views “dressing” as solely a matter of behavior.

I focused a great deal of my book on post-transition kinds of issues because those have not been addressed, either. The Standards of Care imply that hormones/surgery are the end of the line, that once that’s done, the client is done. Many other issues come up post-transition that no one talks about much, so I chose to focus my book on those issues. However, answering this question is making me think perhaps I should focus my next book on the experience of those who don’t need to transition physically.

(5) I happen to like and appreciate your “not female” way of identifying, since it takes into account the years of socialization you had when the world thought of you as female. But that’s not a point I can easily get across to trans women & other MTFs without insulting them or putting them on the defensive. Why don’t you feel threatened by not identifying as “a man” per se, when so many other trans people seem to?

I don’t feel threatened because I am so aware that I would not be who I am today if I hadn’t lived female for 42 years and male for 9. I see much value in who I am today, such that I don’t want to turn my back on that first 42 years and say, “I’m just a man now.” I use a variety of terms for myself, interchangeably – transman, transguy, FTM – but I don’t call myself “a man.” That label leaves out too much.

I don’t react with hostility or defensiveness if someone calls me a man – I know that’s the pigeonhole people put me in when they look at me. I just explain how I define myself. Just as I don’t attempt to define anyone else’s identity, I’m not going to let anyone else define me, either. Regardless of what conclusions people draw about their identities, I encourage everyone to undertake this task of self-definition. And – give up trying to describe anyone other than yourself!

Virginia Erhardt

(1) How long did it take you to compile the stories in Head Over Heels? Where did you find partners who were willing to talk about their experiences?

It was about two and a half years from the point at which I began soliciting participation in 2002 and then sent out questionnaires, until the time when I had created “stories” from the SOs’ responses to my questions. During that time I also worked on my substantive, didactic chapters. It took another two years and a few months from the time when I completed the project and signed a contract with The Haworth Press until Head Over Heels was in print.

I put out a Call for Participants to every online listserve and transgender print publication I could think of. I also requested participation from people at trans conferences at which I presented.

(2) I’m curious about your decision to only include the stories of people who stayed, mostly because for some partners, going really is the best option, so I would have liked to see the decision-making process of at least one partner who decided to go. Can you comment a little on that?

I agree that leaving the relationship is the best option for some partners. Actually, I believe it is best for some gender-variant people as well. Unfortunately, I have heard about and even witnessed ongoing emotionally/verbally abusive treatment of the transperson by the nontrans partner. If that situation can not be addressed and successfully resolved, I think it best for the relationship to be dissolved. I wanted, for the purpose of this book, to focus on relationships that offered hope that staying together is viable. When I was entering the specialty of gender therapy back in 1994, few SOs who were attempting to stay in their relationships came into therapy with me. But that began to change. By 2000, I was seeing more and more significant others in my private practice who were considering staying in their relationships. They were willing to try, despite finding that coming to terms and coping with the gender variance was usually disorienting and painful, the struggle over many decisions, including the basic one of whether to stay was often difficult, and the path was rather lonely, in terms of peer identification.

These women asked me to recommended reading. There were a few resources for women whose partners were cross-dressers. Several partners expressed appreciation for these suggestions. More often I heard complaints that these books seemed to sugar-coat the situation, with the SOs in the books talking about how much fun it was to have husbands with whom they could go out shopping like girlfriends. They said that what was missing for them was gritty stories of women like them who were dealing with difficult feelings and were certainly not finding adjusting to this new information fun. I found no print resources whatsoever specifically for partners of transsexuals. This was when I first conceived Head Over Heels.

SOs who decide to leave seem to know on their own how to negotiate the exit. Those who were considering staying, on the other hand, wanted support, guidance, and people with whom to identify who had been through similar experiences. The latter is what I wanted to offer with Head Over Heels — hope — and the examples of others who had stayed and to one extent or another were making it work, courageous women who loved enough to deal with difficult feelings and experiences, and to emerge even stronger.

(3) Thanks for noticing partners have “ego strength” and aren’t the poor put-upon souls other therapists have made us out to be. Was there a partner with whom you first recognized that? What kinds of things did partners express that convinced you we’re not pathetic or just “putting up with” our loved ones’ transness?

I first recognized the ego strength in a partner who, instead of hurling insults at her spouse, had for years made an effort to understand the gender variance, while standing up for her own needs and doing her part to resolve their issues lovingly. A common theme among the SOs with whom I worked was the sexual orientation dilemma. Partners offered diverse solutions. Some expressed willingness to live platonically, as loving friends/sisters; some said they were willing to try experimentation in order that there be some ongoing erotic connection; others were excited about the gender variance adding spice to their sex lives. The SO I mentioned above fell into the experimentation group. Her spouse was going to have genital surgery, but that didn’t particularly phase her, except for concerns about health and safety risks (always a factor with surgery, more so as we age — they were grandparents to boot). She told me that while intercourse had been limited to a few experiences — after all, they did want children — they had found other ways to give each other pleasure over the years. “We’ll go out and get a copy of The Joy of Lesbian Sex, look at the pictures, and follow directions; how hard could it be?”

I was impressed with SOs who overcame the tendency to be extremely concerned about what others would think and stood by the sides of their partners, acknowledging that they were different, and, validating themselves internally, refusing to accept that there was anything negative about their being an unusual couple.

(4) How many partners, or couples, first come to you for you to “fix” the transness – that is, who want you to make it go away? Do you think that’s most couples’ & individual’s first impulse?

Some gender-variant people come to me for that “fix,” but fewer now that so much information is available on the internet. Still there are SOs who have not informed themselves, who want me to fix their partners. Sometimes gender-variant clients whose SOs have “sent them” have a great deal of difficulty telling their SOs that I’ve said that I can’t “fix” gender variance. Recently I saw a client for almost a year, while we explored her gender issues. Once she had achieved clarity about her intention to transition, I spent months urging her to tell her wife the truth. She had admitted to her wife that she was aware of some gender variance, and her wife was OK with her seeing me — probably hoping for a “fix” — but my client just couldn’t manage to speak the whole truth. One time, when she was out of town, her wife read her journal and called her, furious. They’re now separated and will probably divorce.

I must say that it’s not unusual, in my experience, for gender-variant individuals to leave evidence around, perhaps hoping to be discovered, thus avoiding the necessity for disclosure. Disclosure, however, as one would expect, seems to predict a better relational outcome.

(5) Sometimes transness is more difficult because of the rhetoric that comes out of the larger trans community, and, to be honest, the larger American culture, as in: you have to do what’s right for you, personal happiness is more important than compromise, etc. etc. How would you recommend a trans person & their partner figure out the fine lines between codependence and selfishness?

Actually, Helen, I help gender-variant people and their partners draw those lines the same way I do other couples. Learn to identify and express your own feelings and needs and be responsive to the feelings and needs of your partner, not just your own. Listen to each other. Don’t just focus on the facts, on who’s right and who’s wrong. I hear from so many people, “She just doesn’t understand/care how I feel!” “Do you understand/care how she feels?” I ask. Be honest, authentic. This requires maturity. Maturity involves learning to self-soothe your anxiety and to self-validate, regardless of the opinions of others. Remember that opinions are different from feelings. Often they are judgments. Do not be swayed by judgments, and try not to judge. Be empathic, but maintain good emotional boundaries. While caring, be clear about where you end and your partner begins emotionally. While empathizing with your partner’s feelings, don’t take them in, don’t absorb them. The whole thing has to be a give and take, with willingness on the part of both partners to sometimes put the strong feelings and needs of the other first. That’s the only way a relationship will thrive.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to your wonderful questions!

If you’d like more information about Head Over Heels or would like to discuss the book, come join us in the Reader’s Chair forum.

S. Bear Bergman

1) I have to say that it was the title of your book, Butch is a Noun, that first caught my attention. Tell me how you came up with it, and why you chose it.

It’s both one of my talents and one of my, er, little problems that I’m a huge language geek. I love words, I love language, and I am always deeply satisfied when I can talk about something well, with good words. But I had a hard time, talking about butch. I would say I’m a butch, and people would hear I’m a butch woman or I’m a butch lesbian. Neither of which is comfortable, or accurate. I kept saying No, listen, I mean that I am a butch, as a noun, all by itself – not a modifier but a thing to them be further described.

For a while, I referred to it as The Butch Book, but I never really liked that as a title, it was just sort of a characterization – an internal shorthand. Then one day, I was applying for some time at a writers’ residency to finish it and when it asked for the project title I somehow just knew: Butch Is a Noun.

2) While I was reading Butch is a Noun, I happened to also be reading The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader, and in some ways the two books fit hand-in-glove. What do you think is different about being a butch now as compared to any other time?

Well, for one thing, we have so much better fashion right now. Well, white butches do. White men’s traditional clothes have gotten just stylish enough to be worth wearing; butches of color have really never had that problem in the same way.

No, seriously – I think that the conversations about masculinity is much broader, much richer, in a way that is beginning to include transgressive masculinities. Which, for my money, is great. I also think that as transsexuality has been added to that conversation, butch has also changed – that there is now this rippling undercurrent of thinking that a butch is a middle ground. Butch is getting constructed as more masculine that woman but less masculine than FTM, which I really don’t think is the case at all. I’m not sure that gender and sex have all that much more to do with one another here than anywhere else on the gender continuum.

Personally, I feel that I’m more than ‘sufficiently masculine’ to transition and live as a man, if I cared to – I can even spit and scratch, if I must. :: grin :: I don’t, for specific reasons – largely, related to my desire to keep living in the world as visibly queer. I’m such a culturally-masculine being that if I were to transition in terms of sex I would have to live in the world as a pretty gender-normative man, and I’m not comfortable with that right now – maybe never, but definitely not now.

Sometimes, elder butches ask me if I’m on hormones, if I’m transitioning and when I say No they nod at me approvingly and clap me on the back and say Good for you. But I’m not so comfortable with that, either. I would want to be approved of just as much if I did, or if I ever do, make some medical steps regarding transition. I know that the decision to live in Butch gets seen as a certain kind of choice, but for me it’s where I am, right now, in this moment. I think that Butch Is a Noun is a book for all sorts of masculine things, especially those to exist in a thoughtful considered kind of masculinity – or those who wish to.

3) Despite your being a little bit younger than me, I was pretty amazed by how many of your stories “felt right” to some part of me I left behind in my early 20s, and that only recently I’ve been exploring again. I’ve always chalked that up to having passed as heterosexual. Do you think it’s possible for a het woman to be butch? Why or why not?

Of course, I think it’s possible. I think that any combination of sex and gender is possible – and that many of the more unusual ones are the most delicious. :: grin :: But your masculinity, your butchness, whatever we’re calling it – it’s part of the great big gender game. Everyone’s mileage may vary, there’s really no dealer to see for details, it’s prohibited all over the place but cannot be voided, and no one has seen the warranty in some time, but that’s okay. We hardly miss it.

I’m kind of teasing, but I’m also so serious about this – I really want for people to feel like they can live in whatever gender, or genders, they want, no matter what their sex or sexual orientation or other characteristics are. And if you want to mix it up and be a hearty blend, you should do that, and if anyone gives you a hard time about it – never mind. That’s their stuff. People should be what makes their hearts happy, and not bother about anyone else’s boxes.

4) So tell me about “butch flight” and whether or not it exists.

That’s an intensely subjective question. It’s like asking the whole world How’s the weather today? There’s no way to answer. I think that some people, some geographic or ideologic locations, feel like it exists and some don’t. And some of those think it’s bad and some are neutral about it and some are celebratory.

Again, see above – I think people should do, or be, what they feel called to, and enjoy it, and do it well, and revel in it and not annoy anyone else about their harmless choices. You know? If what someone else is doing isn’t harming you or anyone else – why get saddled up and disapprove of it? Why make someone feel bad for doing what makes them feel good? That’s not kind. It’s not graceful. There’s no honor in that, and no real pleasure, either.

5) Your story about being able to approach a class of kids as a gender-neutral person is really fascinating to me, but in some ways I saw it not only as you registering as “not gendered” to the kids, but also part & parcel of you understanding and having some connection to both genders. There’s an intersection of experience and presentation there that intrigues me – which do you think is more important?

It’s not about being “not gendered.” Not at all. I have a lot of gender – in fact, anyone who needs extra should contact me, because my apartment is small. :: grin :: Ahem.

My ability to work with young men who are oppositional in some way is about me having a gender – that is, butch – with which they have no traction. They can’t perform a gender that bangs against it, as they can with men (by performing a my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours sort of gender, and refusing to be managed) or with women, where they can perform a highly-sexualized, I-know-you-want-it-bitch kind of a gender. Neither of those work on butch – I don’t have a dick (well, not at work), and they don’t want to fuck me. So they get kind of… undermined in their bad behavior. It becomes, somehow, safe to listen to me, and to let me see them.

As far as experience and presentation – they’re both important, they feed from and inform one another. They exist hand in hand. I reach for both of them, and I think that serves me well. Which is what I like – when gender serves me. :: grin ::

If you liked this interview, you can come join the conversation on the boards about Bear’s book and performances, and you can watch zie read the first chapter from Butch is a Noun on YouTube.

1) I love the way you use the word “assimilation” – it always reminds me of the Borg episodes of Star Trek – but I wonder how that term plays in different audiences – say a gay male audience as compared to a trans one. How do people respond to your use of that term, and its sinister connotations?

Generally I’m talking about the way an assimilated gay elite has hijacked queer struggle, and positioned their desires as everyone’s needs. In this way, we see the dominant signs of straight conformity reimagined as the ultimate goals of gay (or that fake acronym “LGBT”) success, i.e. marriage, monogamy, adoption, gentrification, military service, etc. We can see this fundamental absurdity where housing and healthcare and fighting police brutality and challenging US imperialism are no longer seen as “LGBT” issues, but access to Tiffany wedding bands and participatory patriarchy is seen as the bedrock.

So when I articulate these politics, it’s generally the people I’m holding accountable — gay men and lesbians with power and privilege — who are the most scared. Most gay men wouldn’t know Feminism 101 if it hit them over the head, so it’s not surprising that they see getting rid of homeless people and people of color and sex workers from the neighborhoods they’ve gentrified as a wonderful service to the “community.”

Generally it’s more marginalized queers, and especially trans, genderqueer and gender defiant freaks and outlaws and misfits — as well as feminists of various formations — who are ready to challenge the cultural erasure that assimilation represents.

2) Queer people occasionally love that Betty and I are legally married, and identify as queer, but I get the feeling your thoughts on that might be different. Tell me about marriage and gay marriage.

Oh, no — marriage! Well, as we know from decades of feminist activism and scholarship, and from growing up in scary families of origin, marriage is still that central institution through which violence against women, queers, transpeople and children takes place. I don’t think we can reform marriage any more than we can reform other scary institutions of power (like the military, for example) — we’ve got to get rid of it!

What’s so frightening to me is the way in which gay people are so anxious to become part of the status quo that they are willing to throw away decades of queer struggles to create new ways of loving and living with and lusting for one another — defiant means of survival outside of the violence of marriage and heteronormativity. This cultural erasure is so horrifying.

3) Your writings are intensely personal – as are mine – and I’m often asked why I do it, or how I do it. My answer recently has been “Audre Lorde.” What’s yours?

I do it because it keeps me alive. Writing has always been the one thing I always have access to in order to process, engage with and challenge the world around me. I don’t know if I could survive otherwise.

As far as a parallel to your “Audre Lorde,” I’d have to say David Wojnarowicz. His writing was the first time I saw my rage and desire and sense of outsider longing and loveliness reflected in someone else’s work — Plus a sense of maybe a little bit of hope in a world of loss.

4) Tell me about the word “queer” and why you prefer it over “LGBT.”

“LGBT” generally just means gay, with lesbian in parentheses, throw out the bisexuals and put trans on for a little bit of window-dressing. Queer is both more inclusive and more challenging. It encompasses so many identities that are outside of the limited framework of four choices. Queer is a beautiful threat, a defiant attitude, and a willingness to politicize all of the intersections of identity to challenge a world that wants us dead. It’s quite possible to have an “LGBT” identity and to be politicized about nothing outside of a narrow identity politics nightmare, but queer has the potential to encompass so much more. Obviously it’s been appropriated too, so in some ways it’s a paradox that the potential still exists even in these days of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and things like that.

5) Tell us about the links between assimilation and passing.

With Nobody Passes, one of the things I want to do is to examine passing as a means through which the violence of assimilation takes place. Not just passing into dominant cultures, but hierarchies of passing within subcultures as well — what I want to ask is: if we weren’t always required to pass as the right gender, race, class, a sexuality, age, ability, body type or a member of the most desirable religion or the trendiest spiritual gimmick or the Speaker of the House, what devious and devastating opportunities for transformation might we create?